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Current state of lions rugby

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Jong Leeu
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    Posted: 22-Sep-2021 at 2:02pm
Ek sien daar is n nuusberig op supersport app wat lui “ van Rooyen in spotlight as lions open their campain” …. As ek die berig oop maak om hom te lees staan daar net “No data found for event” - ek dink dit is nogal n heel akurate opsomming van die huidige stand van Leeu rugby sake
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Niela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by emiel1 emiel1 wrote:

Originally posted by Leeubok Leeubok wrote:

Originally posted by WitBoer WitBoer wrote:

Originally posted by L13 L13 wrote:

How do you solve this? Replacing Cash is the obvious solution but it isn't that easy.

1. We probably don't have enough money to fire him and knowing us we probably didn't put a performance clause in his contract.

2. Who replaces him? We don't have money to buy anyone out of their contract so it would have to be someone currently without a team... And even if we find a top level coach who is currently out of work there is a good chance they wouldn't want to join because the mess is too big. If by a miracle we find a top coach, who isn't currently contracted and surprisingly wants the job/challenge then how will we afford their backroom staff?

3. We don't have the advantages we had when we were kicked out of Super Rugby. John Mitchell, Spencer and Taylor had created a very fit team with a focus of running rugby. When JA moved up from forwards coach these were in place and he had a year out of competitive rugby to build a hungry squad, focus on tactics and build team culture. The new coach won't have any of that....

Long and painful road ahead I think :(
We can gather some spare change by letting most of the has beens go... I am fairly sure someone like Jannie du Plessis for instance does not come cheap and I am still not convinced that we need him... 
I am a huge Jaco Kriel fan, but we are wasting money on him, he is permanently injured. 
I am sure we can afford a pretty decent coach with a Jannie du Plessis's salary. 

I'm sorry but if Cash doesn't have a performance clause then top management should also excuse themselves and go. 

We simply can't continue as is simply because of a lack of money. I agree with Witboer, let go some of the has been and never beens and our 15th wing, and let go the current head coach at the very least. Surely somewhere out there is a better coach who can take over!

A new coach must take over NOW, and use the remainder of the CC as preparation for the Pro14. 

I would say that with the way the union has been run the last couple of seasons (poor succession planning, appointing fitness coach to be assisted by schools and junior  coaches, piss poor contracting, etc) ); that top management should be the first to go. Get someone competent with good business and decision making qualities to appoint and get the right mix regarding coaching and support structures. 

I’m happy you agree Emiel , when there is soooooo much wrong. Then you cannot fix one thing In isolation (like fire cash), and expect it to be a silver bullet. 

We are too deep and for that only management can be held to account 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emiel1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Leeubok Leeubok wrote:

Originally posted by WitBoer WitBoer wrote:

Originally posted by L13 L13 wrote:

How do you solve this? Replacing Cash is the obvious solution but it isn't that easy.

1. We probably don't have enough money to fire him and knowing us we probably didn't put a performance clause in his contract.

2. Who replaces him? We don't have money to buy anyone out of their contract so it would have to be someone currently without a team... And even if we find a top level coach who is currently out of work there is a good chance they wouldn't want to join because the mess is too big. If by a miracle we find a top coach, who isn't currently contracted and surprisingly wants the job/challenge then how will we afford their backroom staff?

3. We don't have the advantages we had when we were kicked out of Super Rugby. John Mitchell, Spencer and Taylor had created a very fit team with a focus of running rugby. When JA moved up from forwards coach these were in place and he had a year out of competitive rugby to build a hungry squad, focus on tactics and build team culture. The new coach won't have any of that....

Long and painful road ahead I think :(
We can gather some spare change by letting most of the has beens go... I am fairly sure someone like Jannie du Plessis for instance does not come cheap and I am still not convinced that we need him... 
I am a huge Jaco Kriel fan, but we are wasting money on him, he is permanently injured. 
I am sure we can afford a pretty decent coach with a Jannie du Plessis's salary. 

I'm sorry but if Cash doesn't have a performance clause then top management should also excuse themselves and go. 

We simply can't continue as is simply because of a lack of money. I agree with Witboer, let go some of the has been and never beens and our 15th wing, and let go the current head coach at the very least. Surely somewhere out there is a better coach who can take over!

A new coach must take over NOW, and use the remainder of the CC as preparation for the Pro14. 

I would say that with the way the union has been run the last couple of seasons (poor succession planning, appointing fitness coach to be assisted by schools and junior  coaches, piss poor contracting, etc) ); that top management should be the first to go. Get someone competent with good business and decision making qualities to appoint and get the right mix regarding coaching and support structures. 


Edited by emiel1 - 02-Aug-2021 at 2:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leeubok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by WitBoer WitBoer wrote:

Originally posted by L13 L13 wrote:

How do you solve this? Replacing Cash is the obvious solution but it isn't that easy.

1. We probably don't have enough money to fire him and knowing us we probably didn't put a performance clause in his contract.

2. Who replaces him? We don't have money to buy anyone out of their contract so it would have to be someone currently without a team... And even if we find a top level coach who is currently out of work there is a good chance they wouldn't want to join because the mess is too big. If by a miracle we find a top coach, who isn't currently contracted and surprisingly wants the job/challenge then how will we afford their backroom staff?

3. We don't have the advantages we had when we were kicked out of Super Rugby. John Mitchell, Spencer and Taylor had created a very fit team with a focus of running rugby. When JA moved up from forwards coach these were in place and he had a year out of competitive rugby to build a hungry squad, focus on tactics and build team culture. The new coach won't have any of that....

Long and painful road ahead I think :(
We can gather some spare change by letting most of the has beens go... I am fairly sure someone like Jannie du Plessis for instance does not come cheap and I am still not convinced that we need him... 
I am a huge Jaco Kriel fan, but we are wasting money on him, he is permanently injured. 
I am sure we can afford a pretty decent coach with a Jannie du Plessis's salary. 

I'm sorry but if Cash doesn't have a performance clause then top management should also excuse themselves and go. 

We simply can't continue as is simply because of a lack of money. I agree with Witboer, let go some of the has been and never beens and our 15th wing, and let go the current head coach at the very least. Surely somewhere out there is a better coach who can take over!

A new coach must take over NOW, and use the remainder of the CC as preparation for the Pro14. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitBoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by L13 L13 wrote:

How do you solve this? Replacing Cash is the obvious solution but it isn't that easy.

1. We probably don't have enough money to fire him and knowing us we probably didn't put a performance clause in his contract.

2. Who replaces him? We don't have money to buy anyone out of their contract so it would have to be someone currently without a team... And even if we find a top level coach who is currently out of work there is a good chance they wouldn't want to join because the mess is too big. If by a miracle we find a top coach, who isn't currently contracted and surprisingly wants the job/challenge then how will we afford their backroom staff?

3. We don't have the advantages we had when we were kicked out of Super Rugby. John Mitchell, Spencer and Taylor had created a very fit team with a focus of running rugby. When JA moved up from forwards coach these were in place and he had a year out of competitive rugby to build a hungry squad, focus on tactics and build team culture. The new coach won't have any of that....

Long and painful road ahead I think :(
We can gather some spare change by letting most of the has beens go... I am fairly sure someone like Jannie du Plessis for instance does not come cheap and I am still not convinced that we need him... 
I am a huge Jaco Kriel fan, but we are wasting money on him, he is permanently injured. 
I am sure we can afford a pretty decent coach with a Jannie du Plessis's salary. 
"Believe nothing, No matter where you read it, Or who has said it, Not even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own common sense" - Buddha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaBz0r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 10:19am
Originally posted by TunaLion TunaLion wrote:

Ek glo Dave Wessels het steeds nie weer geteken by 'n span nie en ek dink hy is 'n baie goeie afrigter as mens kyk wat hy in sy loopbaan ook al uitgerig het met klomp no-names.

Dink nie hy sal maklik van Aus af kom om in JHB te woon nie :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TunaLion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 9:58am
Ek glo Dave Wessels het steeds nie weer geteken by 'n span nie en ek dink hy is 'n baie goeie afrigter as mens kyk wat hy in sy loopbaan ook al uitgerig het met klomp no-names.
Moo-Mamma, Moo-Papa, MooMa, Mei-Mei. BooBoo en Snif-snaf, ou Stinkie daar by. Almal bly saam in die Moo vallei!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote L13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 9:52am
How do you solve this? Replacing Cash is the obvious solution but it isn't that easy.

1. We probably don't have enough money to fire him and knowing us we probably didn't put a performance clause in his contract.

2. Who replaces him? We don't have money to buy anyone out of their contract so it would have to be someone currently without a team... And even if we find a top level coach who is currently out of work there is a good chance they wouldn't want to join because the mess is too big. If by a miracle we find a top coach, who isn't currently contracted and surprisingly wants the job/challenge then how will we afford their backroom staff?

3. We don't have the advantages we had when we were kicked out of Super Rugby. John Mitchell, Spencer and Taylor had created a very fit team with a focus of running rugby. When JA moved up from forwards coach these were in place and he had a year out of competitive rugby to build a hungry squad, focus on tactics and build team culture. The new coach won't have any of that....

Long and painful road ahead I think :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitBoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 8:36am
Originally posted by Leeubok Leeubok wrote:

Originally posted by PaBz0r PaBz0r wrote:

Lyk of dit bevestig is dat Warren waai Sharks toe. Was in die Rapport. 

Dis 'n jammerte, en wys nou maar net dat alles nie pluis is in die unie nie. 


Dit is jammer... Maar ja, glo nie dit is huidiglik 'n lekker atmosfeer om in te werk nie... 
"Believe nothing, No matter where you read it, Or who has said it, Not even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own common sense" - Buddha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leeubok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 7:14am
Originally posted by PaBz0r PaBz0r wrote:

Lyk of dit bevestig is dat Warren waai Sharks toe. Was in die Rapport. 

Dis 'n jammerte, en wys nou maar net dat alles nie pluis is in die unie nie. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaBz0r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2021 at 6:48am
Lyk of dit bevestig is dat Warren waai Sharks toe. Was in die Rapport. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OomPB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2021 at 8:21pm
Julle is gelukkig, julle het nie n ANC beheerde top bestuur soos die WP nie. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Attie Karate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2021 at 8:20pm
Jammer, maar hierdie spelers word swak afgerig. Dis duidelik soos daglig. Daar is wel heelwat meer beenkop foute in die algemeen, maar dis ook ñ simptoom van druk agv swak afrigting.

Jy kan die beste spelers in die wêreld hê maar hul sal steeds sleg presteer onder swak afrigters.

Niemand gaan aanhou hul gatte af speel vir hierdie aftigtingspan nie, en ek neem hul nie kwalik nie. Help nie die spelers gee hul beste vir ñ lost cause nie. Die afrigringspan hap na poepe in die wind en probeer hul bes, maar hul kom ongelukkig nie die mas op nie.

Dis wel die bestuur se skuld as hul die swak afrigters hou.


Edited by Attie Karate - 31-Jul-2021 at 8:26pm
Up the Vaal!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Niela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2021 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Leeubok Leeubok wrote:

Niela, is it not mostly the same management that were there during the ackers era? It's difficult to blame them for the on field performances. BUT it is their job to fix it now, and appoint new coaches and new talent scouts.

We were all fairly happy when cash was given a chance. It's nice to reward someone coming up through the ranks. Unfortunately no one could look in a glass ball and predict he would fail so dismally.

My take is the head coach needs to be replaced NOW. Let the new guy select the rest of the team around him.

And whoever the guy is that replaced Bart Schoeman must also go

Not entirely the same management. Kevin de Klerk for example.

Never confuse luck with science. Management has always been poor. They were extremely lucky to have landed Johan Ackerman , who turned out to be a bit of a prodigy. 

The difference for me is that , we had it all, just 3 years ago,  yet we managed to let it slip away right before our eyes. 

I suppose my main point is , it’s not as simple as change the coach and all is well. 

We need real change and much better strategic planning: 

- We buy crap players , or has beens. We appointed coaches with little experience. 

- We don’t have strong varsity cup teams.

- We buy players out of positions. We have good youth , but not in positions where we are weak. So we end up with 4 good players all in one position and we can’t give everyone game time or let the team settle in.

- We have no clear strategic plan (on and off the field). 

Then we lose to the pumas twice and the griquas in one CC season. 

No surprises here

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leeubok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2021 at 1:09pm
Niela, is it not mostly the same management that were there during the ackers era? It's difficult to blame them for the on field performances. BUT it is their job to fix it now, and appoint new coaches and new talent scouts.

We were all fairly happy when cash was given a chance. It's nice to reward someone coming up through the ranks. Unfortunately no one could look in a glass ball and predict he would fail so dismally.

My take is the head coach needs to be replaced NOW. Let the new guy select the rest of the team around him.

And whoever the guy is that replaced Bart Schoeman must also go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Niela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2021 at 9:40am
I’m still amazed at how We look at individual performances.

Guys , we are way beyond pointing fingers at refs , players , coaches.

I’ve said it before. We have a serious problem. The results don’t surprise me , we cannot fix on the field. 

We must look at management , simple as that. We have structural issues to fix . 

Dumb signings , wasting money , hiring amateur coaching teams. These things have nothing to do with the players on the day or individual errors.

We need to clean out and start over. It’s dramatic , but fixing one or 2 things in isolation will give the same result I.e insanity.

Sorry to say , but just 3 years ago we were in a super rugby final (which we dominated and lost). It takes a very special kind of management team to stuff it up so royally in 3 years.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goue Leeu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2021 at 8:45am
Kyk ons forwards wat so stadig na die lynstane loop en stadig opset vir die skrum irriteer my grensloos.. waar is die dringendheid? Wat het geword van die tempo hoog hou, veral op Ellispark? Wat is ons nou.. net 'n skrum en maul span? Daar gaan boggerol aan nie en dis asof die spelers 'n identiteitskrisis beleef. Ja jy moet kan skrum en maul maar as dit al is wat jy het, gaan ander spanne jou uitwerk, soos die Pumas gedoen het toe hulle na haltyd die spel begin rek het en drie drieë in 15 minute gaan druk het.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2021 at 8:03am
Gister middag is ek vroeg by die huis en ek besluit om so bietjie youtube videos te kyk. Begin by n  “awesome “ Danie Gerber video en my oog vang toe n video van Hempas Rademeyer, die 1993 Transvaal span, Uli Smith in n Transvaal trui, ons 3 Super rugby finals ens. 

Na die videos kyk ek hoe die skool van 2021 die tweede keer in n jaar teen die Pumas verloor minder as n week en n half na hulle teen Griekwas op Ellispark verloor het. Die moet die slegste Lions span in geskiedenis wees, regtig.

Die spoed waarteen vandag se rugby gespeel word is baie vinniger as in die ‘80 en ‘90. - maar as mens na daai suksesvolke Transvaal en Leeu spanne kyk het hulle alles met spoed en krag gedoen …. As mens gister na die lot kyk hoe hulle so met n trae houding aangestap kom na n lyn staan, die agterlyn nie n clue het wat om die bal te doen nie wonder mens maar oor die fiksheid en afrigting (of ons wonder nie eers meer oor die afrigting nie)

Een ding wat my altyd van Ackerman beindruk het is hoe klein sy afrigtings span was … van Rooyen het n hulp agrigters van wat jou leer  jou skoene vas te maak tot om jou tande te borsel… dit werk nie … jy kan nie minute vat om by n lynstaan uit te kom en nogsteeds hom verloor nie.

Al Kevin de Klerk se harde werk word nou lieflik opgeneuk om dit mooi te stel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OomPB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2021 at 7:47am
Stel Jimmy Stonehouse aan. Hy ken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitBoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2021 at 6:35am
Is daar regtig niks wat ons as ondersteuners kan doen om die bestuur te oorreed of dwing om iets te doen nie? Sommer lus en gaan slaan my tent op op die park en weier om te loop totdat ons nie 'n hele nuwe afrigtingspan het nie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Niela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2021 at 3:20pm
it is easy to sit on the outside and point fingers , true. 

But sometimes sitting outside , you get a different perspective and you are not “caught in” all the BS that goes on.

There is a huge focus on the players or the coaches, I can’t blame them. They don’t pick themselves, that’s why I blame management. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitBoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2021 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by valie valie wrote:

Originally posted by emiel1 emiel1 wrote:

Originally posted by Niela Niela wrote:

Originally posted by OomPB OomPB wrote:

Dok Craven het voorspel dat geld rugby sal vernietig.

Maar hy het nie die detail van Covid-19 geweet nie.

I hope this was more tongue in cheek than fact. 

Money makes the world go round. We need to run the union like a business , and a business that doesn’t perform results in “groot koppe” getting axed.

Altman is an astute business man , how can he sit on the fence and allow his investment to fall apart in front of his eyes ?? 

I think he wrote off the money he put in (in his mind) and now he just wants to “breakeven” or run lean. 

We won’t get any further growth with that mindset. 

Another huge issue is our varsity cup teams. Don’t underestimate this.

When I was at UJ , we had real stars , most made it to the lions senior team and later became boks. From 2015 to 2018 , when we did exceptionally well, it was off the back of a really strong UJ team that dominated between 2009 - 20014 (although they never won the varsity cup, they had real talent and great systems). 

I don’t see us making it , we have nothing going for us (compared to bulls, wp, sharks) 
- Bad varsity cup teams (except the sharks that have nobody)
- Not winning junior rugby comps
- Having far less funding than
- Not having real quality springboks on our books
- Not having international level coaches in the coaching boks.
- Weak management teams
- Competitively weak schoolboy rugby
- Being in JHB CBD (Allure of Pretoria and Cape Town)

It’s not a simple problem to solve. But it doesn’t look like we are trying to address any of the real strategic issues. 


Yeah, Altman helped with financing a few years back, and we are back where we were, so I wouldn't blame him for cutting losses and stop throwing good money after bad. 

Agree with you regarding our development structures. In the past, we may not have had as large pool of talent as the Bulls or Stormers, but we had some real talent coming through our structures that could be augmented with some good signings from other unions.  

This has been replaced with generally very poor planning, contracting, and coaching and development structures. 
I think our development structure are not that bad as we had quite a lot of players in the Junior Bok squad - more than most previous years.
We are trying to compete without a settled Spine.
A couple of years ago we had a spine (2,5,8,9,10,12,13,15) that were all (except our 12) current Springboks at the time, and settled players in settled combinations.
Out of any of those positions, how many of our current players will make any other Currie Cup team's starting lineup?
How many of the 2014/15 Lions squad would have made the starting 15 of any other top union? 
Only Jantjies and Mapoe comes to mind... The rest of the "spine" were coached into the best in their positions. 
We were able to take the players that other unions didn't want and make them the cream of the country (Franco Mostert, Warren Whiteley, Faf de Klerk, Marnitz Boshoff, Skosan, Ross Cronje, Combrinck, Akker, and various others that I might have forgotten about).
That is coaching, being able to get the best out of every player and improve that player to realise his full potential.
Why did we lose players like Marco jv Vuuren, James Venter, Dayimani, etc.? It is because they are stagnating and regressing... Simelane is probably next, others like the Tshitsuka brothers will surely follow close behind...
We need a coach that has a clear plan, recruitment system that recruits players with potential (not necessarily big names) who will fit into that plan and a coach who can implement said plan and make the players believe in the plan and themselves before we will ever be able to compete with the best again.
Now we are doing exactly the opposite... We have a coach with very little know how and we are recruiting whoever's name sound familiar, whether we have a shortage of players in that position or not... The promising "no name" youngsters has to take a back seat because the "has beens" and "never beens" are being played week in and week out... Then the youngsters leave and make a name at other provinces...
I know it is easy to criticize from the couch, but hell this just seems so bloody obvious that it is frustrating... There will be no easy wins and there is no way in hell we will be the top SA team in the next 12 months, but with the right man in charge, we can see continuous improvement every week and be one of the "big dogs" in a couple of years again.
"Believe nothing, No matter where you read it, Or who has said it, Not even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own common sense" - Buddha
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Koning Leeu
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2021 at 11:48am
Originally posted by emiel1 emiel1 wrote:

Originally posted by Niela Niela wrote:

Originally posted by OomPB OomPB wrote:

Dok Craven het voorspel dat geld rugby sal vernietig.

Maar hy het nie die detail van Covid-19 geweet nie.

I hope this was more tongue in cheek than fact. 

Money makes the world go round. We need to run the union like a business , and a business that doesn’t perform results in “groot koppe” getting axed.

Altman is an astute business man , how can he sit on the fence and allow his investment to fall apart in front of his eyes ?? 

I think he wrote off the money he put in (in his mind) and now he just wants to “breakeven” or run lean. 

We won’t get any further growth with that mindset. 

Another huge issue is our varsity cup teams. Don’t underestimate this.

When I was at UJ , we had real stars , most made it to the lions senior team and later became boks. From 2015 to 2018 , when we did exceptionally well, it was off the back of a really strong UJ team that dominated between 2009 - 20014 (although they never won the varsity cup, they had real talent and great systems). 

I don’t see us making it , we have nothing going for us (compared to bulls, wp, sharks) 
- Bad varsity cup teams (except the sharks that have nobody)
- Not winning junior rugby comps
- Having far less funding than
- Not having real quality springboks on our books
- Not having international level coaches in the coaching boks.
- Weak management teams
- Competitively weak schoolboy rugby
- Being in JHB CBD (Allure of Pretoria and Cape Town)

It’s not a simple problem to solve. But it doesn’t look like we are trying to address any of the real strategic issues. 


Yeah, Altman helped with financing a few years back, and we are back where we were, so I wouldn't blame him for cutting losses and stop throwing good money after bad. 

Agree with you regarding our development structures. In the past, we may not have had as large pool of talent as the Bulls or Stormers, but we had some real talent coming through our structures that could be augmented with some good signings from other unions.  

This has been replaced with generally very poor planning, contracting, and coaching and development structures. 
I think our development structure are not that bad as we had quite a lot of players in the Junior Bok squad - more than most previous years.
We are trying to compete without a settled Spine.
A couple of years ago we had a spine (2,5,8,9,10,12,13,15) that were all (except our 12) current Springboks at the time, and settled players in settled combinations.
Out of any of those positions, how many of our current players will make any other Currie Cup team's starting lineup?
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Koning Leeu
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TunaLion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2021 at 11:43am
Even I cannot take this crap anymore. I have defended the union the past year or 2 and hoping there would be some improvement over time. But with such bad management, there will be no improvememt.
Moo-Mamma, Moo-Papa, MooMa, Mei-Mei. BooBoo en Snif-snaf, ou Stinkie daar by. Almal bly saam in die Moo vallei!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emiel1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2021 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Niela Niela wrote:

Originally posted by OomPB OomPB wrote:

Dok Craven het voorspel dat geld rugby sal vernietig.

Maar hy het nie die detail van Covid-19 geweet nie.

I hope this was more tongue in cheek than fact. 

Money makes the world go round. We need to run the union like a business , and a business that doesn’t perform results in “groot koppe” getting axed.

Altman is an astute business man , how can he sit on the fence and allow his investment to fall apart in front of his eyes ?? 

I think he wrote off the money he put in (in his mind) and now he just wants to “breakeven” or run lean. 

We won’t get any further growth with that mindset. 

Another huge issue is our varsity cup teams. Don’t underestimate this.

When I was at UJ , we had real stars , most made it to the lions senior team and later became boks. From 2015 to 2018 , when we did exceptionally well, it was off the back of a really strong UJ team that dominated between 2009 - 20014 (although they never won the varsity cup, they had real talent and great systems). 

I don’t see us making it , we have nothing going for us (compared to bulls, wp, sharks) 
- Bad varsity cup teams (except the sharks that have nobody)
- Not winning junior rugby comps
- Having far less funding than
- Not having real quality springboks on our books
- Not having international level coaches in the coaching boks.
- Weak management teams
- Competitively weak schoolboy rugby
- Being in JHB CBD (Allure of Pretoria and Cape Town)

It’s not a simple problem to solve. But it doesn’t look like we are trying to address any of the real strategic issues. 


Yeah, Altman helped with financing a few years back, and we are back where we were, so I wouldn't blame him for cutting losses and stop throwing good money after bad. 

Agree with you regarding our development structures. In the past, we may not have had as large pool of talent as the Bulls or Stormers, but we had some real talent coming through our structures that could be augmented with some good signings from other unions.  

This has been replaced with generally very poor planning, contracting, and coaching and development structures. 
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