The Lions next play Glasgow Warriors at Ellis Park in the URC on 18 May 2024, kickoff is at 16:05 |
Current state of lions rugby |
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L13
Pasgebore Leeu Joined: 11-Feb-2020 Location: Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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@ Niela, I think our junior teams have been ok the last few years. Making finals and producing good players.
But you are correct with the rest of the points. They are not easy to solve. My idea would be to cut senior players, especially in areas where we are over stocked - wing, centre, scrumhalf, flank and prop to greatly reduce the wage budget. Then promote the juniors which are on lower wages and with a clear pathway to senior rugby, top juniors will pick us. Then use the money saved on 2 elite players (probably a lock and hooker) and an elite coaching team.
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emiel1
Ervare Leeu Joined: 30-Jan-2019 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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Yeah, Altman helped with financing a few years back, and we are back where we were, so I wouldn't blame him for cutting losses and stop throwing good money after bad. Agree with you regarding our development structures. In the past, we may not have had as large pool of talent as the Bulls or Stormers, but we had some real talent coming through our structures that could be augmented with some good signings from other unions. This has been replaced with generally very poor planning, contracting, and coaching and development structures.
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TunaLion
Koning Leeu Joined: 30-Mar-2016 Location: Ellis Park Status: Offline Points: 1776 |
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Even I cannot take this crap anymore. I have defended the union the past year or 2 and hoping there would be some improvement over time. But with such bad management, there will be no improvememt.
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Go LIONS!!!!!
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valie
Koning Leeu Joined: 02-Apr-2016 Location: ver van hier Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
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We are trying to compete without a settled Spine. A couple of years ago we had a spine (2,5,8,9,10,12,13,15) that were all (except our 12) current Springboks at the time, and settled players in settled combinations. Out of any of those positions, how many of our current players will make any other Currie Cup team's starting lineup?
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WitBoer
Koning Leeu Joined: 31-Mar-2016 Location: Bronkhorstsprui Status: Offline Points: 2162 |
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How many of the 2014/15 Lions squad would have made the starting 15 of any other top union? Only Jantjies and Mapoe comes to mind... The rest of the "spine" were coached into the best in their positions. We were able to take the players that other unions didn't want and make them the cream of the country (Franco Mostert, Warren Whiteley, Faf de Klerk, Marnitz Boshoff, Skosan, Ross Cronje, Combrinck, Akker, and various others that I might have forgotten about). That is coaching, being able to get the best out of every player and improve that player to realise his full potential. Why did we lose players like Marco jv Vuuren, James Venter, Dayimani, etc.? It is because they are stagnating and regressing... Simelane is probably next, others like the Tshitsuka brothers will surely follow close behind... We need a coach that has a clear plan, recruitment system that recruits players with potential (not necessarily big names) who will fit into that plan and a coach who can implement said plan and make the players believe in the plan and themselves before we will ever be able to compete with the best again. Now we are doing exactly the opposite... We have a coach with very little know how and we are recruiting whoever's name sound familiar, whether we have a shortage of players in that position or not... The promising "no name" youngsters has to take a back seat because the "has beens" and "never beens" are being played week in and week out... Then the youngsters leave and make a name at other provinces... I know it is easy to criticize from the couch, but hell this just seems so bloody obvious that it is frustrating... There will be no easy wins and there is no way in hell we will be the top SA team in the next 12 months, but with the right man in charge, we can see continuous improvement every week and be one of the "big dogs" in a couple of years again.
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"Believe nothing, No matter where you read it, Or who has said it, Not even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own common sense" - Buddha
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Niela
Ervare Leeu Joined: 29-Apr-2019 Location: Johannesburg Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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it is easy to sit on the outside and point fingers , true.
But sometimes sitting outside , you get a different perspective and you are not “caught in” all the BS that goes on. There is a huge focus on the players or the coaches, I can’t blame them. They don’t pick themselves, that’s why I blame management.
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WitBoer
Koning Leeu Joined: 31-Mar-2016 Location: Bronkhorstsprui Status: Offline Points: 2162 |
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Is daar regtig niks wat ons as ondersteuners kan doen om die bestuur te oorreed of dwing om iets te doen nie? Sommer lus en gaan slaan my tent op op die park en weier om te loop totdat ons nie 'n hele nuwe afrigtingspan het nie.
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"Believe nothing, No matter where you read it, Or who has said it, Not even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own common sense" - Buddha
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OomPB
Jong Leeu Joined: 07-Apr-2016 Location: Struisbaai Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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Stel Jimmy Stonehouse aan. Hy ken.
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monster
Ervare Leeu Joined: 05-Apr-2016 Location: Pretoria Status: Offline Points: 662 |
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Gister middag is ek vroeg by die huis en ek besluit om so bietjie youtube videos te kyk. Begin by n “awesome “ Danie Gerber video en my oog vang toe n video van Hempas Rademeyer, die 1993 Transvaal span, Uli Smith in n Transvaal trui, ons 3 Super rugby finals ens.
Na die videos kyk ek hoe die skool van 2021 die tweede keer in n jaar teen die Pumas verloor minder as n week en n half na hulle teen Griekwas op Ellispark verloor het. Die moet die slegste Lions span in geskiedenis wees, regtig. Die spoed waarteen vandag se rugby gespeel word is baie vinniger as in die ‘80 en ‘90. - maar as mens na daai suksesvolke Transvaal en Leeu spanne kyk het hulle alles met spoed en krag gedoen …. As mens gister na die lot kyk hoe hulle so met n trae houding aangestap kom na n lyn staan, die agterlyn nie n clue het wat om die bal te doen nie wonder mens maar oor die fiksheid en afrigting (of ons wonder nie eers meer oor die afrigting nie) Een ding wat my altyd van Ackerman beindruk het is hoe klein sy afrigtings span was … van Rooyen het n hulp agrigters van wat jou leer jou skoene vas te maak tot om jou tande te borsel… dit werk nie … jy kan nie minute vat om by n lynstaan uit te kom en nogsteeds hom verloor nie. Al Kevin de Klerk se harde werk word nou lieflik opgeneuk om dit mooi te stel
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Goue Leeu
Koning Leeu Joined: 18-Apr-2016 Status: Offline Points: 2219 |
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Kyk ons forwards wat so stadig na die lynstane loop en stadig opset vir die skrum irriteer my grensloos.. waar is die dringendheid? Wat het geword van die tempo hoog hou, veral op Ellispark? Wat is ons nou.. net 'n skrum en maul span? Daar gaan boggerol aan nie en dis asof die spelers 'n identiteitskrisis beleef. Ja jy moet kan skrum en maul maar as dit al is wat jy het, gaan ander spanne jou uitwerk, soos die Pumas gedoen het toe hulle na haltyd die spel begin rek het en drie drieë in 15 minute gaan druk het.
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Niela
Ervare Leeu Joined: 29-Apr-2019 Location: Johannesburg Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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I’m still amazed at how We look at individual performances.
Guys , we are way beyond pointing fingers at refs , players , coaches. I’ve said it before. We have a serious problem. The results don’t surprise me , we cannot fix on the field. We must look at management , simple as that. We have structural issues to fix . Dumb signings , wasting money , hiring amateur coaching teams. These things have nothing to do with the players on the day or individual errors. We need to clean out and start over. It’s dramatic , but fixing one or 2 things in isolation will give the same result I.e insanity. Sorry to say , but just 3 years ago we were in a super rugby final (which we dominated and lost). It takes a very special kind of management team to stuff it up so royally in 3 years. |
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Leeubok
Koning Leeu Joined: 31-Mar-2016 Location: KZN Status: Offline Points: 4954 |
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Niela, is it not mostly the same management that were there during the ackers era? It's difficult to blame them for the on field performances. BUT it is their job to fix it now, and appoint new coaches and new talent scouts.
We were all fairly happy when cash was given a chance. It's nice to reward someone coming up through the ranks. Unfortunately no one could look in a glass ball and predict he would fail so dismally. My take is the head coach needs to be replaced NOW. Let the new guy select the rest of the team around him. And whoever the guy is that replaced Bart Schoeman must also go
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Niela
Ervare Leeu Joined: 29-Apr-2019 Location: Johannesburg Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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Not entirely the same management. Kevin de Klerk for example. Never confuse luck with science. Management has always been poor. They were extremely lucky to have landed Johan Ackerman , who turned out to be a bit of a prodigy. The difference for me is that , we had it all, just 3 years ago, yet we managed to let it slip away right before our eyes. I suppose my main point is , it’s not as simple as change the coach and all is well. We need real change and much better strategic planning: - We buy crap players , or has beens. We appointed coaches with little experience. - We don’t have strong varsity cup teams. - We buy players out of positions. We have good youth , but not in positions where we are weak. So we end up with 4 good players all in one position and we can’t give everyone game time or let the team settle in. - We have no clear strategic plan (on and off the field). Then we lose to the pumas twice and the griquas in one CC season. No surprises here |
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Attie Karate
Koning Leeu Joined: 31-Mar-2016 Status: Offline Points: 1506 |
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Jammer, maar hierdie spelers word swak afgerig. Dis duidelik soos daglig. Daar is wel heelwat meer beenkop foute in die algemeen, maar dis ook ñ simptoom van druk agv swak afrigting.
Jy kan die beste spelers in die wêreld hê maar hul sal steeds sleg presteer onder swak afrigters. Niemand gaan aanhou hul gatte af speel vir hierdie aftigtingspan nie, en ek neem hul nie kwalik nie. Help nie die spelers gee hul beste vir ñ lost cause nie. Die afrigringspan hap na poepe in die wind en probeer hul bes, maar hul kom ongelukkig nie die mas op nie. Dis wel die bestuur se skuld as hul die swak afrigters hou.
Edited by Attie Karate - 31-Jul-2021 at 8:26pm |
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Up the Vaal!
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OomPB
Jong Leeu Joined: 07-Apr-2016 Location: Struisbaai Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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Julle is gelukkig, julle het nie n ANC beheerde top bestuur soos die WP nie.
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PaBz0r
Koning Leeu Joined: 30-Mar-2016 Location: Pretoria Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
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Lyk of dit bevestig is dat Warren waai Sharks toe. Was in die Rapport.
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Leeubok
Koning Leeu Joined: 31-Mar-2016 Location: KZN Status: Offline Points: 4954 |
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Dis 'n jammerte, en wys nou maar net dat alles nie pluis is in die unie nie. |
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WitBoer
Koning Leeu Joined: 31-Mar-2016 Location: Bronkhorstsprui Status: Offline Points: 2162 |
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Dit is jammer... Maar ja, glo nie dit is huidiglik 'n lekker atmosfeer om in te werk nie...
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"Believe nothing, No matter where you read it, Or who has said it, Not even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own common sense" - Buddha
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L13
Pasgebore Leeu Joined: 11-Feb-2020 Location: Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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How do you solve this? Replacing Cash is the obvious solution but it isn't that easy.
1. We probably don't have enough money to fire him and knowing us we probably didn't put a performance clause in his contract. 2. Who replaces him? We don't have money to buy anyone out of their contract so it would have to be someone currently without a team... And even if we find a top level coach who is currently out of work there is a good chance they wouldn't want to join because the mess is too big. If by a miracle we find a top coach, who isn't currently contracted and surprisingly wants the job/challenge then how will we afford their backroom staff? 3. We don't have the advantages we had when we were kicked out of Super Rugby. John Mitchell, Spencer and Taylor had created a very fit team with a focus of running rugby. When JA moved up from forwards coach these were in place and he had a year out of competitive rugby to build a hungry squad, focus on tactics and build team culture. The new coach won't have any of that.... Long and painful road ahead I think :(
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TunaLion
Koning Leeu Joined: 30-Mar-2016 Location: Ellis Park Status: Offline Points: 1776 |
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Ek glo Dave Wessels het steeds nie weer geteken by 'n span nie en ek dink hy is 'n baie goeie afrigter as mens kyk wat hy in sy loopbaan ook al uitgerig het met klomp no-names.
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Go LIONS!!!!!
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PaBz0r
Koning Leeu Joined: 30-Mar-2016 Location: Pretoria Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
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Dink nie hy sal maklik van Aus af kom om in JHB te woon nie :D
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WitBoer
Koning Leeu Joined: 31-Mar-2016 Location: Bronkhorstsprui Status: Offline Points: 2162 |
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We can gather some spare change by letting most of the has beens go... I am fairly sure someone like Jannie du Plessis for instance does not come cheap and I am still not convinced that we need him... I am a huge Jaco Kriel fan, but we are wasting money on him, he is permanently injured. I am sure we can afford a pretty decent coach with a Jannie du Plessis's salary.
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"Believe nothing, No matter where you read it, Or who has said it, Not even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own common sense" - Buddha
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Leeubok
Koning Leeu Joined: 31-Mar-2016 Location: KZN Status: Offline Points: 4954 |
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I'm sorry but if Cash doesn't have a performance clause then top management should also excuse themselves and go. We simply can't continue as is simply because of a lack of money. I agree with Witboer, let go some of the has been and never beens and our 15th wing, and let go the current head coach at the very least. Surely somewhere out there is a better coach who can take over! A new coach must take over NOW, and use the remainder of the CC as preparation for the Pro14.
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emiel1
Ervare Leeu Joined: 30-Jan-2019 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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I would say that with the way the union has been run the last couple of seasons (poor succession planning, appointing fitness coach to be assisted by schools and junior coaches, piss poor contracting, etc) ); that top management should be the first to go. Get someone competent with good business and decision making qualities to appoint and get the right mix regarding coaching and support structures.
Edited by emiel1 - 02-Aug-2021 at 2:15pm |
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Niela
Ervare Leeu Joined: 29-Apr-2019 Location: Johannesburg Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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I’m happy you agree Emiel , when there is soooooo much wrong. Then you cannot fix one thing In isolation (like fire cash), and expect it to be a silver bullet. We are too deep and for that only management can be held to account
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